Gamers Lounge

Gamers Lounge Episode 21 – Help! We’re being oppressed!

by on Nov.29, 2010, under 40K, Games Workshop, Interviews, Making the Game Fun, Podcast, The Hobby

Gamers Lounge Episode 21 – Help! We’re being oppressed!

Episode 21 is here, and the boys are now old enough to drink. Unfortunately, alcohol was lacking in the episode.. but mmmm Starbucks.
Our topic this episode is an interesting one, where we bring on the target of Bill’s episode 20 rant. Bill is back to being the straight man, while Jay moves back into his role of Crazy-Nutty-Wookie. RWAHR. Bill is so scared he lets Jay take over the M&SU Bar to discuss zombies.

Content at:
00:00.33 – Lounge Talk
00:42.00 – RayJ – Being Gamist
00:46.00 – M&SU Bar – Nicodem Overview
02:08.05 – Outro

Standard Podcast [ 2:14:37 ] Play Now | Play in Popup | Download (37)

  • http://wcp-mach5.blogspot.com/ Mark

    Excellent timing for some background to a late night painting session (Pandora and crew are coming along nicely!).

    I’m with you guys on the gamist discussion. “Counts As” is a wonderful tool to allow gamers to create unique, themed armies while maintaining a certain level of WYSIWYG. In no way should it be used as an excuse to simply proxy one army for another.

    One more thing, Jay cheats! ;) Nicodem’s decay remains a ranged strike spell, and so cannot be used while in combat. If I’m reading it right, he could however set it up to cast through the vulture at the combat he himself is in (so long as the Vulture isn’t in combat, per the errata). Well, I’m dizzy after that one.

    Thanks for another great episode.

    • http://deadtau.blogspot.com/ WAnderson

      Jay does cheat, but as they say in Star Wars:
      “Let the Wookiee Win”

      Thanks for the feedback on the show. We thought it would be a good conversation but I have to admit, I play mini-games for the cinematic aspect, not the competitive game.

      • Anonymous

        There another reason I am taking a break from Malifaux. It is impossible to keep anything straight as the rules seem to change every day. The new Errata needs to hurry up and be released so that I can at least know what the rules are finally for a few days (hopefully).

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  • Da Masta Cheef

    Not that I know about such things, but I’m curious as to what format you guys use to make your podcasts. Whenever i download a podcast from itunes, it only takes a few minutes (if that). Even the D6G’s marathon episodes rarely take longer than 3-4 minutes, yet yours always seem to take forever. According to itunes it’ll take another 28minutes…

    Your episodes are always worth the wait, however the download time differential just strikes me as curious.

    • http://deadtau.blogspot.com/ WAnderson

      That actually has to do with where the file is hosted opposed to the type of the file, at least in our case. We use mp3 for our file type but I expect the download time is influenced most by multiple downloads accessing the same system on a slower (coda.net) uplink to the internet. Basically, as we become more popular we need to keep an eye on this and potentially upgrade to a faster internet link.

      I will mention something on the next show, feedback on the download times is very helpful. I would be interested to know if that time is improved later in the 2 week cycle. The slowest download of the show should ironically be right when it releases as that’s when the most people download the show.

      • http://www.talesfromthewarzone.com Lord Shaper

        I’ve seen issues like that with some of the 40+ podcasts that I listen to… It also happens with The 11th Company if I can remember correctly while I sit here at work.

        From when I was doing my own shows if I hosted something on my site compared to libsyn there was a huge difference in the time to download due to the amount of traffic getting it at once.

        Since I generally download my shows over night I generally always have them downloaded by the morning and since bandwidth is a cost you might not want to pay I haven’t an issue with it taking time to download.

  • BigBadGarou

    Love the fact that you actually got Ray on the show. He has some good points but when its not tournament. When in a tournament you need to know what things are quickly. I wouldn’t want 90% of my game being asked or asking “What is that again?” especially when its timed. Also, one of the things Adepticon has is the WYSIWYG to your minis.

  • GuySmiley

    This was a very interesting show. I sometimes wonder if the Nova open debate isn’t just a precursor to a space marine player using a rune priest with his Vulcan death company dread list. The day that marines get to call in other chapters as allies.

    However, with the different codex balance in mind I am very curious about your comments from the M&SU Nicodem overview. In rising power both the freikorps coming out now and Hoffman who will come out eventually, are not effected by blasts. Do you think the new masters just change the way the old masters need to be played or do some of the new abilities make some masters an unreasonable match up?

    • http://wcp-mach5.blogspot.org Mark

      Hoffman is one model, and if he bunches up his crew to be within his 3″ protection-from-blasts range he’s gonna make himself and his crew vulnerable to other forms of attack. Friekorps ignore the blasts, but that is but one of Nicodems powers, and on their own they have no way to steal his corpse counters. Personally I think Nicodem would still have a tougher go against Lady J.

      • GuySmiley

        I agree completely that models like the dreamer, Hoffman, and the Freikorps aren’t unstoppable because of their management of blasts, aura, and pulses. Just that it will hamper the style of play described podcast. While the scouts can eat the corpse counters, Hoffman really has to count on the fact that his crew doesn’t create them to help mitigate what the ressers can do.

        Although I do think we will see Hoffman played in a huddle of constructs In order to boost his CA. Additionally his ability to shoot his constructs weapons seems to support that idea. Then with linked in he can move a model back in the way thus blocking LOS and stopping much of the crazy stuff that can be done on him. Please keep in mind that is only how I see him being played. I have only ran a proxy of him once out of curiosity and I don’t have the games in to say how he works.

        However, to follow my idea from before. I am mostly trying to gauge the effects the new henchmen and masters have had on the game. I have played a few of the new models and masters already and the only major difference I have seen is their ability to get across the board and attack.

        I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

        • http://www.talesfromthewarzone.com Lord Shaper

          I’m waiting to see what it is going to be like when we have more of the new masters/henchmen come out so we can see if there is a distinct balance issue like some people are thinking is going to happen. Maybe we’ll see a return of power to the original masters when book 3 comes around?

          I think it’s a good thing that none of my current group have played with much of the new masters but we’ve been using some of the other minions like Watchers and Silent Ones.

  • http://www.talesfromthewarzone.com Lord Shaper

    Another great show to help me get through he day at work. I can’t wait to see the finished Dead Tau pictures. As for the ‘Count As’ force I’m not sure how I feel about using Eldar as Dark Eldar. I can see from a cost point of view (I was reading someones post the other day going through the cost to make a IG army from scratch) which really shocked me, as well as turned me off building one ever. So I can understand having a count as army that can be used for multiple forces.

    The more I think on it I can see issues with the tanks but if they are going to be modelled as Dark Eldar, as in the fluff is something like a fallen craftworld as was mentioned or they have been liberated by a Dark Eldar Raid and we’re going to see them with witches hanging off them I could see it fitting in really well.

    You could say the same with a Traitor IG like at Ten Inch Template. I have no issue with that force what so ever but with the pieced together Leman Russ tanks some could have issues as it doesn’t look the same.

    I have the characters in my Blood Angels army with Possessed Wings instead of Jump Packs but in my list they are jump packs so would that be an issue as well?

    Maybe at a tournament then you would want to take the booklet army list approach for all opponents might be an idea. I would have The Background fluff, The Army List and also a photo of each unit with that it is so they have something to refer to instead of asking each time what is what.

    As for Malifaux, I still haven’t faced any Ressers or Neverborn yet… All I keep on having to face is arcarnists and I’ve found that Marcus can die in one hit from Lady J.

    At least hearing the information about Nikodem I can put together counters for him if I ever have to face him!

    Keep up the good work guys!

  • AJ

    O.k

    It was a great show, but I am going be one of these Nay sayers against the Eldar “Count as” DE

    To address a few points Ray brought up first
    * GW encourages you to create your own chapter, craftworld, Inq force … using named characters as count as in this fasion is perfectly fine

    *Playing 1 set of models with another set of rules just comes across as cheesy … not gamist how would you feel coming up against my sisters of Battle army, using the SW rules ??? They are all in power armour

    *In a Tourny you said you feel that the player must have made an investment in the game (hence why no stickers on bases) My feeling is that you in to invest either time or money or both, so yes play with your eldar infantry models, but use the Grav tanks as a basis for a conversion to make them fit the profile of the DE Vehicles.

    But what I distilled from that discussion is .. you want to use the Dark Eldar rules just because you feel the Eldar arent competitive with in the current meta game, at the end of the day … you want to use the Eldar models, you either need to do some conversions or man up and play eldar … and really test your “skills”

    And before you go on about space marines, I think anyone who paints their Space Marines a nondescript colour so they can use any dex they want need to pull their heads out of a dark smelly place. This Hobby is expensive (I collect an army that is fully metal) and they need to man up to that fact and buy multiple armies

    AJ
    Host of the Imperial Truth

    • http://www.talesfromthewarzone.com Lord Shaper

      Another thing that you could look at is he could be using the Eldar as a pre-fall Dark Eldar… We see a lot of pre-heresy armies for the marines coming out so we have Death Guard and World Eaters using the Space Marine Codex… I could even see Pre-Heresy World Eaters using the current Blood Angels codex and instead of calling it the Read Thirst it could be a Blood Lust or something like that.

      I’m sure that if someone wanted to play Eldar as Dark Eldar or any other race (Sisters of Battle as Sisters of Silence using the Space Marine Codex for Example) if you have the fluff to go along with it I’m sure anyone could do it.

      It would come down to how creative someone is at coming up with the backstory?

      We’ve all heard of Deathwing armies using the Space Wolves codex and if the Grey Knights one comes out we could see Deathwing as Grey Knights and run all terminators…

  • Anonymous

    My 2 cents, Counts as armies are not cool in a GT here’s why. When I as your opponent look over at your units while choosing to move shoot and assault can’t tell what units they are or what they are equipped with without going through the army list you provided at the beginning if the battle is in my opinion lame. You made the argument that the infantry is more or less the same but to me it’s not. The guns look different lets say you are using a squad of guardians to represent some warriors fine same base they look close enough. The weapons look different I as an opponent look over and don’t know at a glance if he has a blaster or a lance. Lets say you are using a squad of Dark Reapers to represent Incubi I would have to ask or look at your army list to decipher that. I think this is a bad move but, okay in friendly games. At a GT you should be told no.

    It was brought up on the show well look Space Marines do it! This is false argument. If I have a blue SM and I am using the SW or BA codex you know this before the battle when I hand you my army list.I fire a missile launcher it’s the same for every codex S8 AP3 48″ It may have some different rules attached to it like split fire from long fangs or points cost in BA but as a GT player you will be well aware of these things and not need to bury your head in to the opponents army list to see what the hell is going on. So to me this is a falsehood that should be done away with.

    One other point Ray J brought up that he basically doesn’t want to spend the money to have a GT tourney level Dark Eldar army because he as already bought so much from GW. My take on this is then don’t play Dark Eldar if you have so much other stuff that is tourney ready please spare us with your counts as army that we can’t make heads or tails of in a competitive environment this is not the place. Like Ray J said things should be different when money is on the line. I agree they should, suck it up you have a year go buy the army you want to play it have fun. Also if you have so much other stuff why don’t you sell a portion to buy the DE that you need for the tourney this way you get to save some coin.

    • Anonymous

      Great comments guys, Markdawg, why do you think it is fair that Marine players should be able to get away with using different codex to represent their armies while Eldar/Dark Eldar should not? If Ray J were to go out a purchase DE vehicles for his army, would you still have problems playing against the counts as Eldar uses as DE?

      Also as a side not, What is your guys stance on TOs choosing to allow or disallow using proxy armies, even in the case of Marines as other Marines in tournaments? I only ask as the Nova Open allows it some what, as First and Second overall were both using Marine armies that represented other armies then what the models did, namely Chaos as Space Wolves and Crimson Fists as Blood Angels; however the St. Valentines Day Massacre coming up in Philly in Feb 2011 does not allow this kind of counts as army, Chaos is Chaos, Blood Angels are Blood Angels, Space Wolves are Space Wolves, etc. Where should a TO draw the line?

      • Anonymous

        Huronbh, I told you in my post the weapons of the Dark Eldar look and have totally differnet stat lines. If I have a BA army and I play the chaos codex and I fire a bolter at you it’s the same thing you know what it is by looking at it. If you have a sea of Eldar infantry. Eldar do not have dark lances or splinter cannons husk blades heat lances and all the other crazy war gear that is in the DE codex so I as your opponent am going to have to ask or reread your army list every turn to decipher what this unit is and what it has.

        With Marine armies this is not the case and in the small cases it is the case, and it’s rare it wont efect the game like this would. As for the DE vehicles I don’t think it’s as big a problem as you do It still think it’s lame but it’s not as big of a deal for a SM player.Lets say I have and BA army and I am using the chaos codex my landraider is sitll a landraider. I was shocked that you thought counts as for infantry was okay this to me is where I see the biggest problem for confusion.

  • http://galaxyinflames.blogspot.com/ Big Jim

    Good show as always.

    I hope that TO’s squash this sort of ‘counts as’ into oblivion. I am a hobby gamer (casual gamer is used as a derogatory term by a lot of the community) and am pretty open to almost anything, but there is no way we would let the army fly in my gaming group. This is completely from a vehicle perspective, they are so different in tabletop profile that it just would not be a viable counts as.

    This is would be even worse in a tournament setting. If you wanna use the DE rules because they are better in you opinion, you are going to need to build an equivalent model to a Raider or use the official model.

  • Shabba War Boss

    Guys, as always great show. My take is if you like the Codex convert the models or vice versa. I might as well take my CSMs and paint them with white primer so I can use the latest Space Marine or CSM codex (depending on what works…)